How is it even legal to have explicitly preferential pay for people not in a union? Is there a limit to that, or can companies just say, “Anyone who joins a union will be paid minimum wage.” Ofc with at-will employment they can always just fire you, but like, if you think about it it’s pretty fucked up right?
I mean of course it’s fucked up of course there’s room for abuse. That’s capitalism. The point of capitalism is abuse. The point of capitalism is the exploitation of the worker. In essence that’s the problem here. You keep asking why are things aren’t Fair, the answer is capitalism it’s inherently unfair. There are no rules in a capitalist Society to keep things Fair. The point of capitalism is to make things unfair.
I’m well aware of that. As I said, “Ofc with at-will employment they can always just fire you, but like, if you think about it it’s pretty fucked up right?”
There are so many replies that don’t get it. 123. You’re explaining to me how it’s “obviously” fucked up (which I already acknowledged), but most of the replies are telling me that it isn’t fucked up at all - maybe you should try responding to those people instead of to me.
They’re not trying to tell you it’s not fucked up. They’re just surprised you’re stuck on the most Elemental aspect and are moving on to the next aspects. Everyone knows it’s fucked up and has moved on to the next topic. Fundamental truth to the world aren’t something we spend a lot of time talking about.
sure, but whether or not they know it they have caved to the union’s demands by doing that
You think this demonstrates that “everyone knows it’s fucked up?” Because it sounds a lot to me like they’re saying it isn’t fucked up at all, and is in fact, “caving to the union’s demands.”
I wish that when my critics attacked me from completely opposite angles, they spent half as much time criticizing each other for having 100% opposite positions on why I’m supposedly wrong.
No, like I just said in the comment you apparently didn’t read, they’ve moved past the fact that it’s fucked up onto the next topic. I don’t get what you’re not getting here. I’ll say it one more time. We all know it’s fucked up. That’s what capitalism means. That’s not a unique thing to say. It’s not a new thing to say. You’re not breaking ground here. Next topic.
No, they have not, “accepted it and moved on to the next topic” they are disputing the claim. That’s the opposite of accepting it. You can’t read, or you’re just saying complete nonsense to troll.
I don’t think it’s preferential pay. It’s just that they pay more, somebody in the union also can get more money than the union minimum. Somebody not part of the union can get less or more than somebody in the union, just not below the union minimum.
It’s not that if they join the union that they get less money.
The union + 0.5 just means that they earn better than the minimum and the employer gives them more than the minimum, because people like that.
At least that’s how it works where I live and union contracts are common.
Not everyone part of the union has to get exactly the union minimum, it’s just that you cannot legally get less. People might not be part of the union but they still fall under the union contract negotiated by the union, because it applies to the entire company.
So even then, the union people might be making more than the union minimum, so the non union person might still be making less than an average union person while not getting any union benefits.
What I’m saying is that if they can set “$0.50 above union rates” as the company policy for everyone, they can also set “$5 above union rates” as the company policy for everyone and then cut union rates by $5. It’s essentially just bribing people to not join a union or penalizing them if they do. It being company policy for everyone is irrelevant.
The issue here is that if more people choose not to join a union for the pay raise in the short term, unions become weaker in the longer term. The capitalist in this case is paying a premium now to divide up labor for the chance down the line to save more money on labor overall in the long term.
How is it even legal to have explicitly preferential pay for people not in a union? Is there a limit to that, or can companies just say, “Anyone who joins a union will be paid minimum wage.” Ofc with at-will employment they can always just fire you, but like, if you think about it it’s pretty fucked up right?
I wouldn’t be surprised if the union has other benefits that more then make up for the 50 cents, e.g. better medical, vacation, or whatever.
I get that, I’m just highlighting the potential for abuse. Or rather, that it’s fucked up in the first place.
I mean of course it’s fucked up of course there’s room for abuse. That’s capitalism. The point of capitalism is abuse. The point of capitalism is the exploitation of the worker. In essence that’s the problem here. You keep asking why are things aren’t Fair, the answer is capitalism it’s inherently unfair. There are no rules in a capitalist Society to keep things Fair. The point of capitalism is to make things unfair.
I’m well aware of that. As I said, “Ofc with at-will employment they can always just fire you, but like, if you think about it it’s pretty fucked up right?”
There are so many replies that don’t get it. 1 2 3. You’re explaining to me how it’s “obviously” fucked up (which I already acknowledged), but most of the replies are telling me that it isn’t fucked up at all - maybe you should try responding to those people instead of to me.
They’re not trying to tell you it’s not fucked up. They’re just surprised you’re stuck on the most Elemental aspect and are moving on to the next aspects. Everyone knows it’s fucked up and has moved on to the next topic. Fundamental truth to the world aren’t something we spend a lot of time talking about.
Are reading the same replies?
You think this demonstrates that “everyone knows it’s fucked up?” Because it sounds a lot to me like they’re saying it isn’t fucked up at all, and is in fact, “caving to the union’s demands.”
I wish that when my critics attacked me from completely opposite angles, they spent half as much time criticizing each other for having 100% opposite positions on why I’m supposedly wrong.
No, like I just said in the comment you apparently didn’t read, they’ve moved past the fact that it’s fucked up onto the next topic. I don’t get what you’re not getting here. I’ll say it one more time. We all know it’s fucked up. That’s what capitalism means. That’s not a unique thing to say. It’s not a new thing to say. You’re not breaking ground here. Next topic.
No, they have not, “accepted it and moved on to the next topic” they are disputing the claim. That’s the opposite of accepting it. You can’t read, or you’re just saying complete nonsense to troll.
I don’t think it’s preferential pay. It’s just that they pay more, somebody in the union also can get more money than the union minimum. Somebody not part of the union can get less or more than somebody in the union, just not below the union minimum.
It’s not that if they join the union that they get less money. The union + 0.5 just means that they earn better than the minimum and the employer gives them more than the minimum, because people like that.
At least that’s how it works where I live and union contracts are common.
Not everyone part of the union has to get exactly the union minimum, it’s just that you cannot legally get less. People might not be part of the union but they still fall under the union contract negotiated by the union, because it applies to the entire company.
You may be right, but it certainly sounds like she’s claiming it’s contractual, explicit, and general policy.
I don’t read it like that. The sentence just says that their pay rate has that amount, not that it is connected to them not being a union member.
Who’s “we” then, if not non-union members?
The people the contract is with, maybe all employees of the company have the agreement.
You are thinking way too much into that statement, the way I described is the way it works here, and that seems much more likely tbh.
That’s literally what I’m saying.
You are saying it’s union members vs non union members being separated.
And it’s not.
The union members are included in the “we” that contractually makes $0.50/hr more than… union members?
So even then, the union people might be making more than the union minimum, so the non union person might still be making less than an average union person while not getting any union benefits.
That’s just personal negotiation then. And nothing that this top level comment was talking about.
sounds like their pay is based on union rates. that’s probably just a company policy for everyone.
What I’m saying is that if they can set “$0.50 above union rates” as the company policy for everyone, they can also set “$5 above union rates” as the company policy for everyone and then cut union rates by $5. It’s essentially just bribing people to not join a union or penalizing them if they do. It being company policy for everyone is irrelevant.
sure, but whether or not they know it they have caved to the union’s demands by doing that
What kind of 5th dimensional chess are you trying to play where penalizing someone for joining a union is “caving to the union’s demands?”
One of the main goals of unions is to increase worker pay. Mission accomplished.
The issue here is that if more people choose not to join a union for the pay raise in the short term, unions become weaker in the longer term. The capitalist in this case is paying a premium now to divide up labor for the chance down the line to save more money on labor overall in the long term.