- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- economy@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- economy@lemmy.world
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I don’t think Musk much cares or ever did. The goal was to milk tesla for every last dime.
finally some good news.
I don’t get how a company is losing this much in multiple countries yet is still operating?
Like if they can lose this much and still be operating and investments not tanking, would it follow that they can pay better wages and benefits?
My commute is about 20 miles a day. Charging level 1 at work is enough unless I go out on the weekend. My Nissan Leaf has been good enough for me. And it is neither Tesla nor Chinese.
My only gripe with that car is that it looks really bland. Then again I am no James Dean where I sit with two kids seats with the back full of shopping
I think it’s a good looking car. My problem with it is chademo. It’s unfortunately the betamax of plugs.
Damn good car too. My bro rocked one for years, deceptively large inside. Quarterly he’d drive about 1000km in it which I think was mad but made it work, 80km at a time!!!
I’m genuinely surprised people be ok with BYD on Lemmy. It’s authoritarian spyware, period. There are more options than these two - ww don’t have to choose the lesser evil.
I’m genuinely surprised people be ok with BYD on Lemmy
You are actually genuinely surprised… people on lemmy like something from china? I guess you know not a lot about lemmy lol.
Here’s a hint: A lot of people on lemmy love china, especially the people who created it, and even moreso the people who populated it in its first days. You should look into lemmy a bit more if that’s genuinely surprising to you.
Why would someone who doesn’t live in China give a shit about Chinese spyware, especially when the alternative is any of the big US/EU manufacturers who happily hand your information to your own government?
China can’t do shit to yall. I’d include myself in there, but I quite enjoyed my time in China and intend to return, so Chinese spyware could actually be a threat to me.
enemy of my enemy shit, I suppose.
Lemmy has always been retarded like that.
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Why would I give a fucking shit? Every new car is a piece of shit spy ware device that collects and sells your data. Honestly, I’d rather china have my data than a fucking capitalist company or America. At least china won’t do anything to me, our government is more of a threat to the average American than china is.
What a defeatist take.
Or… live in a place or advocate for a place where spyware cars arent a necessity for simply existing…
When something is 100% required for life, someone WILL exploit it
Where is that?
Every new car is a piece of shit spy ware device that collects and sells your data
Fuck me, it has to be sad living in this paranoid state…
I’d rather china have my data than a fucking capitalist company or America
Ignorance at it’s best. You’d rather support the state that is committing literal genocide than capitalism.
Sure, capitalism is cancer and sucks, but I don’t think it’s worse than genocide, mate.
Ignorance is bliss I guess? New cars are pretty much computers on wheels that collect data. This is not a secret or anything.
I mean, fuck China and the genocide of the Uighur. It’s terrible. But I’m pretty confident that capitalism killed a whole lot more people throughout history.
Unfortunately they are all bad. Nissan and Renault did pretty badly on privacy (something about recording sexual activity?)
“though researchers identified Renault as the least problematic.”
Renault was found to be the least problematic and this was one point for me to buy a Renault. Did not consent to data collection as I bought it (used). I am not consenting in the cars systems and I dont use the cloud service. Installed OVMS and called it a day…
You are right - I stand corrected.
New cars are pretty much computers on wheels that collect data
There’s a difference between what telemetry a German car gathers, and what a Chinese car gathers. And where is it sent.
The data from EU companies is anonymised and private. The data from Chinese companies is always available to their government.
I mean, fuck China and the genocide of the Uighur. It’s terrible. But I’m pretty confident that capitalism killed a whole lot more people throughout history
Ah, I guess it’s fine then. Since throughout history more people died because of capitalist policies, then we can support China with a clear conscience!
I do 100% agree with this, though:
Ignorance is bliss I guess?
The data from EU companies is anonymised and private. The data from Chinese companies is always available to their government.
Just trust me bro, the EU respects you but the Chinese are out to get you. The same EU that still has a special trade agreement with the genocidal Zionists, and is their biggest trading partner. The same continent that colonized and enslaved much of the rest of the world for centuries.Those are the good guys that you should implicitly trust, no proof needed you paranoid dummy. The red Chinese, they’re the scary ones. Fear them.
Haha, tell that VW who stored positional data with full precision against their own rules (the CCC Chaos computer Club did a good presentation about this).
Is it. I know it’s a Chinese company but is there any evidence that there is anything going on?
The evidence is in the fact that it’s a Chinese company. They are required by law to provide the government with all the data they collect (and we know they collect data).
Right but has anybody actually run a packet inspector on the data, or even confirm that it is sending packets back and by what method?
Because everybody “knows” China does this but everybody also “knows” that the Facebook app listens to you. As far as I know no evidence has ever been provided of either claim. The evidence is always ooh well I spoke about yoghurts and then 3 days later I had an advert for a yoghurt, which is somewhat unconvincing as conclusive proof.
everybody also “knows” that the Facebook app listens to you
As for China - THIS the bog-standard procedure for any tech-related company when an employee has to travel to China. Give them a burner phone and laptop, zero company data on them, zero access to critical company data, after they return, just throw the gear away.
I honestly don’t now what other proof would you need, when we know them spying on regular people has been happening for decades.
That article does not contain any actual evidence of any wrongdoing by Facebook. The reason I don’t think that they are listening is that would be an utterly insane amount of data and 99% of it would be worthless.
The clinch would be someone pointing to some actual data, which is why I keep asking for the packets, and yet years later no one has ever produced them. No cybersecurity expert has ever been able to show me a packet, it’s the simplest thing in the world and, they can’t find them. If you’re into a conspiracy theories explain how that works. They are allegedly listening to you except there was no evidence of any data is going to the Facebook servers. So how are they getting it?
Facebook have a lot of data and people really aren’t as random as they think they are I’m sure they can algorithmically get this data without having to resort to to listening on the microphone.
Yes it literally phones back every bit of data. What other evidence do you need?
The actual packets would be nice. Since you obviously have that evidence because you’re saying they “literally” do it would you mind providing it?
Here you go:
- https://www.byd.com/en-th/data-privacy
- https://www.koreaherald.com/article/10416925
- https://region.com.au/worst-offenders-respond-to-claims-their-cars-are-spying-on-you/818187/
Do you really think that CCP politely declines this free data? It’s so easy to hide spyware under “anonymous performance telimetry” - didn’t we learn anything from Cabridge Analytica and a billion of other cases? God lord, you people deserve to be spied on.
Cool. Now provide us with sources. Besides buzzword banger articles I haven’t seen hard proof. At least not more than other brands. Meanwhile Tesla has been doing this for training their self driving and we’ve been fine with it. And so do most cars under the norm of telemetry data.
Lemmy is weird. As long as you’re on the dogpile against the current “big bad” of the week, you’re good to go. Fuck Tesla? Then let’s buy Chinese products.
It’s insane, but it’s where we are.
It’s authoritarian spyware, period. There are more options than these two - ww don’t have to choose the lesser evil.
Let’s not forget that they are actively committing genocide against the Uighur. I don’t think they are the “lesser evil”.
Or still actively occupy Tibet, how conveniently everyone forgot that but yay a slightly cheaper car!
What, do you want to bring back the theocratic, slave-owning Lamas? I haven’t been to Tibet to as them, but I really doubt the average person wants what you seem to want for them.
Because Tibet never got the chance to transition to a modern country. FYI China invaded in 1950 Oct 6th - at that time big chunk of the world was still theocratic, autocratic and slave owning.
Right right, of course that’s true, and it’s also true that many people have requirements that can only be met by a few vehicles on the market.
Do you carry a cell phone?
I pick the cheapest.
Any non-cunts in the EV manufacturing space? Or is that a prerequisite?
Hyundai has been pretty good. And I only hear good things about Rivian and Lucid.
I have a Chevy Bolt EUV. Maybe it’s still cunty. But I’m pretty sure it better than China spyware or a Nazi.
Good thing the Tesla board voted to give Elmo all those billions to make him stay, because for a second there was an actual risk that Tesla could survive as a company without Elmo, but now they kept him and made sure they’ll all go down off that cliff.
There is no way I would tickle him!
What if you could use a baseball bat? Maybe with nails in it.
How many nails, and are they rusty and mostly blunt?
How tf does someone with a bajillion dollars look like a pile of wet garbage bags at 54? Aren’t they all supposed to be using lotions made from aardvark assholes and incubus foreskins to maintain immortality?
Well it turns out that ketamine isn’t the elixir of life.
You take that back. You take that back right now!!
You laugh, but it’s worse than you might think.
Literal vampire shit lmao.
Both cars support oppressive dictators, but one is cheaper, supports CarPlay / Android auto, and has actually buttons for things.
BYD cars don’t have very many buttons either. See here. They’re tablets on wheels too. I quite dislike BYD interiors.
True, but that thing is like a fighter jet compared to Telsa’s void of emptiness. 14 controls on the wheel (and they’re labeled), real controls for drive modes, there are basic climate controls on the center console, you can manually adjust fan orientation, etc.
It’s still overly reliant on touch, but I’d easily take that over a Telsa.
Meh. I would not take either. In fact I actually didn’t. I went to a showroom and got inside their EVs and PHEVs while looking for a car. My immediate reaction after sitting in the driver’s seat of their PHEV was “I don’t want to drive this”. Same thing with the pure EV. I’ll give you the wheel, but those A/C controls next to the “shifter” are touch surfaces instead of actual buttons, and they’re just as annoying and worthless as touchscreen controls. Which is sad because those cars have fantastic stats on paper and very competitive prices. Unfortunately most EVs on the market have fucking stupid interior designs. Very often you have to choose between affordable and well designed. Not very many that are both.
In the end I decided not to buy a new car at all. Still got my 2015 Leon.
I am not sure you can say BYD supports a dictator per se, more like it exists in a state capitalist country where you exist at the behest of the dictator.
Elon actively pushed and spent money to get trump elected.
Well played sir, well played.
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Pooh bear is actually starting to look less oppressive in comparison these last 7 months tbh
To be fair, the CCP has already done a lot of armed crackdowns and disappearing. They’re in the phase where people are too scared to resist.
Also quite true. They no longer need to use the threat of violence because of the implication
The worrying part is that they kinda seem to be implementing good policies for (at least some of) their people.
There’s a lot of disturbing stuff, and probably a whole lot more that we don’t even know about, but social security, education, healthcare - my impression is that they’re going the right way, while the US looks eager to go back to the Dark ages.
Just with STEM degrees, they’re producing almost 5x more graduates than the US, and they’ve surpassed the number of doctorates a long time ago too.
The current world balance won’t hold one more generation.
I think part of it is that they can actually do anything long-term. Even the most altruistic president in for example the US will get four, at most eight years to do what they’re planning. That’s not enough time to do anything meaningful, all the while they’re dealing with flak from the consequences of the last presidency, and their successor will at best take credit for their achievements, at worst destroy them before they succeed. And that’s assuming the citizens didn’t elect a self-serving megalomaniac.
Winnie the pooh, I’m pretty sure, actually cares about his country. He’s by no means benevolent, but he has the power, resources, and time to build proper infrastructure and reshape the country as he sees fit.
Socially they’re way behind from what I, as an outsider, can tell. Women’s rights at least seem somewhat acceptable with definite room for improvement, but queer rights are even worse. Oh and there’s a literal genocide of Uyghurs so that’s pretty fucking bad.
But the benefits of China’s dictatorship lie in the fact that they can actually think in the long-term and not just until the next election (the politician’s equivalent of the next financial quarter) so they can wield their powers and resources to achieve these goals. The glorious leader must be praised for centuries to come, that can’t happen if the earth becomes uninhabitable due to climate change or the country crumbles in on itself due to failing education and a failing economy.
Now if only that applied to citizen’s rights…
They’re in the phase where people are too scared to resist
Source?
Over 90% of Chinese agree that “democracy is important” and 80% agree that their country is democratic? Was this survey conducted in Taiwan and signed as “China” complying with “one China policy”?
I’ve never met any Chinese believing that their country is democratic nor that democracy is important. Quite the opposite - they usually say that China grew thanks to the lack of democracy (never calling it a dictatorship though)
Even the CCP propaganda doesn’t claim that China is the democracy but instead they show the negative sides of the democracies so that people don’t even think that it may be a good idea if China was democratic
Again, asking for any type of source or statistic over anecdotes. Your “observations” go against reputable polling and statistics of people in China.
Was this survey conducted in Taiwan and signed as “China” complying with “one China policy”?
No… in fact this was a Harvard study that started off with “Given how China is an authoritarian nightmare, how widespread is support for the government?”
https://rajawali.hks.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/07/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf
Well, I must have been super unlucky then as I have talked about it with like 5 different Chinese met at 5 different circumstances
Theres a lot of diverse opinions with chinese people, especially travelers.
Yes… that is not only possible, but likely when n=5…
Please, the original claim was “Chinese people feel coerced”, which is wrong by every metric, and there is no evidence to support this claim.
Although China is certainly not immune from severe social and economic challenges, there is little evidence to support the idea that the CCP is losing legitima- cy in the eyes of its people. In fact, our survey shows that, across a wide variety of metrics, by 2016 the Chi- nese government was more popular than at any point during the previous two decades. On average, Chinese citizens reported that the government’s provision of healthcare, welfare, and other essential public services was far better and more equitable than when the survey began in 2003. Also, in terms of corruption, the drop in satisfaction between 2009 and 2011 was complete- ly erased, and the public appeared generally support- ive of Xi Jinping’s widely-publicized anti-corruption campaign. Even on the issue of the environment, where many citizens expressed dissatisfaction, the majority of respondents expected conditions to improve over the next several years. For each of these issues, China’s poorer, non-coastal residents expressed equal (if not even greater) confidence in the actions of government than more privileged residents. As such, there was no real sign of burgeoning discontent among China’s main demographic groups, casting doubt on the idea that the country was facing a crisis of political legitimacy.
https://rajawali.hks.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/07/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf
Let me guess: Harvard is tankie?
If a country is not a divisive hellscape of anger, it must be because they are too afraid to answer surveys honestly? If fear motivated answers then “democracy is impotant” might score low if “there wasn’t a genuine feeling that people are heard in China”.
Look at the massive gap in west between democracy is important and the 40% of people too distracted to understand that their governments don’t serve them. Think hard of what a nightmarish dystopia that is for a second, and then realize that part of that divisiveness is politicians telling you (and you repeating their propaganda as absolute) we need a path to war against China that will make it all better.
Trump is definitely headed in China’s direction, but MSNBC is still allowed to exist.
This is what I hate. One is owned by a fuck cunt. The other is owned by china. Neither one are actually good options if you are not buying one because of their beliefs
Other options exist; you don’t have to buy either. Volkswagen Group, Audi, Renault, BMW, Fiat etc all make EVs in Europe. Hyundai & Kia also both make excellent EVs.
Buying a Tesla is a choice these days. Nobody trips and falls into Tesla ownership. And although those cheap Chinese manufacturers look mighty tempting, they’re not the only alternative out there.
Though, you don’t want to buy German either if you want to support “good”. VW, Audi, BMW, all German car mafia.
On a side note, Audi and VW are both under the same owner.
Why are German cars a bad choice? I’d rather buy German than get another Citroen tbh.
Well, Germany is still actively supporting a genocide, and their car industry is probably supplying a not-insignificant amount of funds for that.
So does a lot of countries, and I am not sure if a car company has anything to do with decisions of politicians.
It’ll probably be based on some silly WW2-era grudge, which I find stupid.
Or Dieselgate, which while awful, despite what the headlines would have you believe, the VW group was far from the only manufacturer with illegally high diesel emissions, in fact, they were far from being the worst.
There are of course other things, VW has started trying to get into the DLC for cars bullshit that others have, but IMO that pales in comparison to Elon’s bullshit or China literally using slave labour.
E: oops, there’s some transparency issues on that Wikipedia graph. Dark mode users may struggle. Here’s the link: Diesel Emissions Scandal
Come on Canada, let us have cheap BYD, fuck the US economy.
I’m all for fuck the US but don’t you think Canada can make it’s own cars? Being dependent on China’s economy is no better than being dependent on the US or Europe.
While Canada making its own affordable, long range EV’s would be ideal in the long run, we literally have no canadian-owned production facilities or brands that currently can, or do produce low or mid end cars, and Canada seems to have no interest in subsidising those.
Which means, in the short run, I want a vehicle I can afford to buy that doesn’t give me range anxiety, and the only reason I can’t is because Canada literally doubled the price of the cars that currently exist that fit my requirements because the US asked them to.
Hydro Quebec invented BYD’s battery technology, the only reason they licensed it to BYD in the first place is nobody else was going to do anything with it.
nah, forget about them
let us have economical cars because we don’t need these massive expensive things just to go 5km to get a load of groceries
Let us have safe bicycle infrastructure do that we can bike to those stores, how about that? And with that, add mixed constructions in the suburbs so that people have small local stores around.
A bike costs a fraction of a car
Bicycle infrastructure building and maintenance costs a fraction of that for cars
Bicycles don’t emit CO2. And for those wise asses saying that the cyclist does, it’s a fraction of a fraction of a car because you’re not lugging 2 tonnes of stell around to transport you and a bottle of milk.
Cycling infrastructure is much more efficient, you can push a shit tonne more people over the same road if you don’t need big ass cars. Yes, even your Mercedes smart car is I ass compared to a bicycle
It creates much much less pollution from tire dust
It’s much safer, bicycles kill only a fraction of the people that cars kill all year round
It’s healthier, people do exercise not because they went to the gym, but all day every day with their bikes
It cuts the noise pollution
It’s cheaper because no taxes, no gas needed, maintenance is a fraction of that of a car.
It’s way less wasteful
It lowers aggression. Though it may or may not exist, I’ve never heard of bicycle road rage
Need more?
Less cars is less parking spaces. Parking spaces get cities barely any taxable income. Instead of these ugly ass concrete wasteland parkitsoaces you can now have restaurants with outside patios which can be taxed. Couple that with the cheaper infrastructure, and that alone should be an obvious reason as to why do this
It’s really not that much slower. For typical short trips, bicycles usually only add some 10-20% of required time to your trip.
For any trip over say, 5-10 kilometers, use good public transportation
For those once in a lifetime trips where you actually need a car because you need to transport something huge, use one of those Evo rent-a-car.
In the Netherlands, a huge amount of people don’t have a car. Not because they can’t (they totally can) but because it’s stupid to have one. You can go everywhere by bike, you can jump with your bike in a train when needed to go further, cars are expensive and bad for everyone, why even have one?
Let us have safe bicycle infrastructure do that we can bike to those stores, how about that? And with that, add mixed constructions in the suburbs so that people have small local stores around.
Not everyone live in a big city where there is everything you need in terms of grocery and services.
Living in a small city, I can walk to do most of my day by day routine, but I need a car to be able to go where there are services/shops that are not present. And being a small city the public transportation or every solution where you just rent the car/bike/whatever to use a couple of hours are not really present since it is not economically sustainable (too few people spreaded on a relatively too big area)
That works in the city but i live in a remote area, and have an hour and a half round trip to work every day because its not economically viable for me to move closer.
Since I doubt Canada/BC will spend the money putting in viable public transit/high speed rail, I just want them to do the bare minimum to allow me to afford to stop burning gas to afford my next meal.
While striving for turning every small town into a walkable city sounds great and amazing on paper, the reality is it won’t happen, so we should push for baby steps in the right direction instead only focusing on the absolute ideal.
Us as well. I am disabled. One hour drive one way to the hospital. Grocery store is half an hour. A train would be awesome but they keep ripping up tracks here so that’s not likely.
🤣🤣🤣
Not one more penny for this Nazi!
Let me guess, the stock did go up?
Today down 1.37%, but up 7.14% overall for the week.
I’m sure the free market knows what’s right /s
FSD tomorrow, amirite
Full unsupervised robotaxi while your car makes money for you as you sleep, in 6-months. Pinky promise.
Delivered via Tesla semi
And it’s totally not just a rich man’s playground.
Quick Elon, buy the President of Europe! /s
If he could be would try
Hell yeah
I don’t know about you but I drive over 5-10km regularly. For a short miserable stretch my daily commute was 90 miles. Buying household groceries or anything of size sounds annoying or impossible on bike. And then there’s work tools and whatnot that many professionals keep in vehicle.
Buying household groceries or anything of size sounds annoying or impossible on bike.
Not sure why buying groceries on a bike would be annoying or impossible. I do all my grocery shopping by bike, every single day, sometimes twice a day. Just bring a backpack.
As for ‘anything of size’, what would you need to transport? I still have a car, but I use it so little that I only need to buy gas maybe once or twice a year.
I tried it and in my country they’re restricted to 15.5mph so largely did nothing for me as my route is out in the countryside.
I moved to an e-moped (like an electric vespa) and it’s been amazing. About £1k to buy, £80 to insure and albeit restricted to 50mile range the equivalent mpg is something like 400mpg.
Naturally doesn’t work if you need to carry kids or large objects around routinely but has been great for me
The ebike option meme is so laughable. I recently did some research on cargo bikes and the entry models cost as much as a used ICE car with no air con, no rain cover, no heating, no safety. Ebike people are straight up delusional in thinking this is ready to replace cars.
Getting a second hand ice car is objectively the best thing you can do right now for everyone involved unless you ride half a million km a year.
Ok? I bought my E-Bike 8 years ago for 1500€ and use two roller bags and grab a bit of groceries on my way back from work. It’s a 10km commute one way, so a total of 20km. It takes me a grand total of 26 minutes to get to work. The car usually takes longer due to traffic.
I mean, it’s nice having a PHEV for bigger tasks but we (family of 3) only have one car. We do plenty with our E-Bikes.
Edit: and yes, I use the bike in winter, during rain and snow and I don’t give a shit. I fortunately also don’t live in a total shit hole, which was a choice I actively made.
I’m happy you have this privilidge but reality is majority of the world doesn’t. E-bikes are still not accessible to most and that’ll continue to be the way because the tech is fundamentally flawed without fundamental architecture redesign which will take decades at least.
The tech is flawed? Bicycles are the most efficient mode of transportation bar none. E-Bikes just have a very efficient motor slapped onto them. It’s not the tech. I also don’t believe it’s the climate because I know for a fact that more and more people are commuting by bike in the Philippines. If they can do it in 37 °C heat at 99% humidity and maximum exhaust fumes, then so can you.
That said, infrastructure is the biggest flaw. And that’s something that can be changed within a couple of years, as long as people are willing to do so. The Netherlands were a car-brain shit hole in the 70s, and they made a 180 and live in fucking paradise.
Of course there are many things that absolutely require a car, but groceries isn’t one of those, unless you live in the soulless suburban sprawl that you see so often in the USA.
The tech is flawed? Bicycles are the most efficient mode of transportation bar none
Efficient in what regard? it has 0% efficiency when it comes to covering me from rain or the sun. Now what?
I don’t think it is laughable.
A new cargo is 5000€ and you can find used or discounted ones for less than 3000€.
A used car will cost far more in repairs, insurance and gas, my 2010 car is valued around 3000€ and it costs us around 1000-1500€/year.
I don’t think bikes can replace cars for everyone, but many people could use a bike instead or their car 95% of the time, when we see that so much people use a car for less than 5 km.
Only concern is safety to use a bike in the middle of fast cars, but a proper infrastructure (separated bike lanes) solves it for a fraction of the cost of roads and parking places.
Cargo bikes cost 5 grand? That’s outrageous.
You’re just pulling stats out of your ass here. What you’re doing with your cargo bike in winter? Or summer heat? The cargo bike cult really thinks most of the world is a small town in central Europe when most of the world on avg is mountains in Indonesia.
I swear the sole reason e-bikes are not as big as they should be is the obnoxiously ignorant user base.
“The cargo bike cult really thinks most of the world is a small town in central Europe when most of the world on avg is mountains in Indonesia.” - agreed, they can still go to other countries in Europe and make the same claim. I’d love to see them bike in winter on the Atlantic coast.
I’m completely out of shape and don’t exercise at all, but commuted to work on a bike when my workplace was ~5 miles away. Wasn’t hard at all and only took a little longer than a car. Had a rack on the back and bags to pick up groceries too. If you need carry a lot of heavy tools every day, it obviously wouldn’t be ideal. Even then a bicycle trailer could be used up to something like 100lbs.
