What signals do you look for? Do you decide based on reason or instinct?
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Raised Catholic. Anything that makes me feel guilty is a desire.
Oh, in my life it’s abundantly clear. Needs are shelter, food, water, hygiene, clothing, work, and sleep. Everything else is a luxury and I feel a little guilty naughty every time I splurge and seek something outside of my 7 essential needs.
I even feel naughty on the rare occasions I drink flavored sparkling water instead of basic water. Because basic water is a survival need, whereas flavored sparkling water is a tasty tingly indulgence with aspartame that leaves me feeling even thirstier for real water.
I think a need is neccessarily tied to some goal and can’t really be discussed without mentioning the goal.
If the goal is survival the needs are water, food shelter. if your goal is not to continue living, then e.g. poison would be more of a need than food, water and shelter.
If the goal is having a fulfilled life the needs also include social contact, intimacy, something meaningful you can spend your time on etc.
so i don’t think you can just say something is a need, you need to decide what your goals are, probably with some hierarchy of goals, and work backwards from that to the needs. Or conversely, to know if something is a need, think about if not having it would keep you from your goal.
so i don’t think you can just say something is a need, you need to decide what your goals are, probably with some hierarchy of goals, and work backwards from that to the needs. Or conversely, to know if something is a need, think about if not having it would keep you from your goal.
Hmm, sadly that results in a circular reasoning, no? How do you decide upon goals - which goals are important (needs) and which are folly (desire)? Should we simply trust Maslow got it right?
I don’t think it’s circular reasoning. more like kicking the can down the road, instead of deciding needs, you need to decide goals. but once you have a goal it helps determining the needs. So it’s a different framing that can help a bit to untangle the mess. Maslow is also just 4 goals in a hierarchy and then the needs for each of them.
As for how to decide on goals, idk, that changes all the time and I don’t think there’s any hard set rule to figure that out. In the end it’s all just made up 🤷 But I think asking yourself “what are my goals in life” is more productive than asking yourself “what do I need”, at least it comes more naturally to me.
But I think asking yourself “what are my goals in life” is more productive than asking yourself “what do I need”, at least it comes more naturally to me.
I think I see what you mean. It’s searching for a vision that makes intuitive sense, no?
Also, thank you for explaining
Yes I think that summarizes it nicely 🙂
A need is something that you feel compelled to do.
A desire is like something you want but much more than just simply wanting.
If I’d die without it, it’s a need. Otherwise a desire.
Counterpoint: You do not die* without legal documents, but having legal documents still a “need” in most modern civilizations, can’t even get most jobs if you do not have an ID.
(*well, not immediately, anyways, you can always beg for food or shoplift)
but having legal documents still a “need” in most modern civilization
Not really, plenty of people are undocumented or live somewhere illegally. It’s very desirable to have legal status, but it’s not a need.
The police in Germany disagrees.
Hm? Sorry, with what are they disagreeing?
Most needs you know in advance. Desires can hit you.
needs: food, water, shelter.
I’m not sure the distinction really matters. What you’re actually asking, I think, is how we decide whether or not to act on a desire.
I can only speak for myself, but one of the first things I consider is how long I’ve wanted something. If it’s a new impulse, it’s probably not essential. That doesn’t mean that wanting something for a long time automatically justifies getting it, but it’s worth factoring in.
Another thing to ask is whether you’d still want it if you couldn’t tell anyone about it. Even if you say yes, could you actually do it? For example, I bought my dream car seven years ago, and I’ve never posted a single picture of it on social media. I didn’t even park it at my company lot - I walked the last five minutes instead.
The third thing is to consider whether getting the thing actually satisfies the need, or whether you’ll soon want another. I own plenty of cool and even expensive stuff, but most of it is the kind of thing I’ll probably never need to buy again. I’ll have and use it for the rest of my life.
When it comes to things like this, I think we usually know. Deep down, we do. Just be honest with yourself. You don’t owe that honesty to anyone else - but don’t lie to yourself about it either.
Needs are instrumental to some normative goal. You might have a reason to believe, do, or act. To that end, you have “needs.”
Desires are just natural facts, like headaches. Desires aren’t rational or irrational. They just are. The way you respond to your desires can be good or bad, but the desire itself is something that’s happening to you.
So, for instance, self-actualization might be one of your values. To that end, you have Maslow’s hierarchy of needs to worry about.
You also have to contend with a laundry list of desires, fulfilling some of which could make you happy or sad. Rationality is your sensitivity and responsiveness to facts that count in favor of acting on (or eschewing) these desires.
Needs are instrumental to some normative goal.
Can you elaborate please as I don’t quite understand? Normative goal, as in societal norm? Where does the goal come from?
Colloquially, you can think of values or virtues. So, community might be something you value, which gives you certain needs, such as a sense of belonging or acceptance. Similarly, if being alive is important to you, then food, water, and shelter will be among your growing list of needs.
On the other hand, you might have a desire to chew your nails, which would briefly relieve your anxiety but cause other long-term problems. You weigh these facts and decide not to fulfill your desire to chew your nails.
You cannot reasonably opt-out of having friends, however, if community is important to you or simply decide not to eat if living is still a priority. Those are needs.
Thank you for elaborating. Let me ponder a while on your ideas :)
Those two are rather different, but a rule of thumb could be… a need, as the word implies, is necessary, to keep going or to achieve something else. A desire would be nice but you can live without it.
to keep going or to achieve something else
I feel like this is a Matryoshka answer? At least for me the difference isn’t as clear as you claim it is.
How do you know whether the thing you want to achieve, or the things you want to keep on going, is a need or a desire?
(I guess I just woke up with monday morning existential dread haha.)
Other than obvious needs like food, water, and shelter, what people need and what they desire can vary from person to person. They also don’t really know if anything else is a need or a desire without attempting to go without it.
I don’t need social interaction. I’m probably better for having it, and there is definitely a desire for a few close family and friends. But if stuck on a desert island alone I could adjust fairly easily.
Some people would be unable alone on an island with nobody to interact with. They need social interaction to thrive, and may even need it to simply keep on living.
They also don’t really know if anything else is a need or a desire without attempting to go without it.
That’s a very practical answer. I like it! Thank you!
You can’t do without whatever it is you need, you can do without whatever it is you want.
I want to read that specific book but I need to be able to read.
At the most fundamentals, we need very little: food, shelter and then to be able to reproduce. But there are other ‘needs’, those would just be the true basic ones.
and then to be able to reproduce.
Why would you classify that as a need? It’s a biological -intuitive- desire, is my interpretation.
(Your interpretation is valid either way, I’m not trying to argue for or against. Just want to learn other’s point of view, maybe change mine in the process)
Why would you classify that as a need? It’s a biological -intuitive- desire, is my interpretation.
Your remark is 100% correct, don’t worry. I (too) hastily replied to the OP as in regards to the reproducing mention I should have specified I was not considering the individual but the species.
As a species, we need to perpetuate. All species do, us included. which does not mean all members of said species must/should/need to reproduce. More often than not, it will be quite the opposite. Edit: says I, a 50+ years old married dude without children ;)
Reproduction is a paradigmatic example of a meaningless urge or desire. You can certainly choose to reproduce, if you must.
If you say so, it must be true.
Mmm. I’d put them both in the spectrum of want, where need is simply further in, being more “pressing”, a thirst that physically or psychologically “has to be quenched”. Biological stuff like hunger and the need for sleep are here but I mean, you don’t have to fulfill them because you can just die and it’s not like the universe would crumble because of it. It’s not “necessary”.
And, whilst reason can help you understand these wants (and classify them and even curtail them), they come up by themselves. Like, even infants understand injustice and hate it and wanna “make things right” (YT has several videos on the topic), even if they don’t have the words to express it yet.
Hopefully what I said here makes some sort of sense, lol.
Hopefully what I said here makes some sort of sense, lol.
Yes. It’s what I’m gravitating towards as well. That it’s all mostly biological. And reason is there only to more easily quench those instinct. I like the rephrasing as “wants”.
That in reason exists no reason to be.
If you argue like that, then nothing is necessary and the word can be forgotten. But how about we do not define necessary as something that needs to happen to keep the universe going and instead something people have to do to survive? Then we have another word to distinguish how important something is. And of course that is also how everyone uses that word, so using it this way is also simply normal and anything else will result in misunderstandings.
and instead something people have to do to survive?
Eventually that group of “things” grows endlessly, no? The hedonistic treadmill?
You can keep a person alive in a zoo easily. Water, food, shelter. Untill they realise they’re in a zoo. Then the “need” for freedom arises.
Why does the list grow? How? Who does that? And of course there are more details than just energy/nutrition, water on that list, those are just the most obvious and basic things. You also need breathable air etc.
The example, freedom, is undefined. People in the USA think they have freedom, I think they are living in a dystopian world.
Why does the list grow? How?
Exactly my question too.
Who does that?
I observe it everywhere. For example when people say they need a vacation. Or when people say they need strong social bonds.
It’s obviously not a necessity to keep their body alive. But I do believe they view it as a genuine need?
People say lots of things, there is no need to take it in the most literal way possible.
Where I live it made it into law even: vacation is mandatory because the majority decided it’s a need.
