The shitshow in the Whitehouse yesterday really brought it to light - the U.S. can no longer be trusted with our secrets. Its time to leave 5 eyes. I would create a new intelligence sharing union with the other 3 members, on condition that they also leave. Inviting France and other EU states might also make sense.
You’re right but it would be enormously complex. We’d actually have to set up a new, separate system, first, then leave, and do that without upsetting a notoriously thin-skinned sociopath, who would still, during the process, have all our secrets.
I disagree - everything we send goes to Moscow. Everything we get comes from Moscow. There is no value for us. There’s nothing to lose by leaving.
I’m afraid there is, because Trump’s vindictiveness won’t stop with intelligence! Tariffs would be just the start.
Wow, this is like the country level of justifying staying with an abuser. If the USA is unreliable and insecure, because of trumps, but more because the American people voted him in and their government sees fit not to prevent the kind of issues he’s causing. Then it’s better to leave and face consequences, and retaliate appropriately now, than suffer and still face those same consequences later.
No, it isn’t, because the first thing I said was:
You’re right
And the rest of my comment simply pointed out that it would be complex and risky - which is true.
Yes, but you’re discounting the fact that all intelligence is shared in the mean time. All large intergovernmental organisations are complex. The USA is likely compromised. Sharing data with them would undermine the new entity.
Maybe we could group together with other countries in the same continent as us and grow stronger bonds with them. You could even make it easier for trade to go between such countries by sharing some common laws amongst one another. Another wild idea is that if some countries are struggling to get people to work on certain industries, we could make it easier for people within this group to work between different countries.
Could call it the Group of Europe or something similar.
Yeah but if you value the cultural diversity of Europe why would you want to see it homogenised under one corporatist banner? Why should diversity be reduced to the special designation of a few products such as stilton and champagne?
What is right for the UK might not be right for the Republic of Ireland, what is right for Greece might not be right for Germany, What is right for France might not be right for Italy. Why should laws be drafted by completely unknown people in Brussels and applied to everybody?
Ultimately, why shouldn’t people all across Europe have self-determination and autonomy? Don’t we need more devolution not less?
Could we achieve this, and have free movement of people? Yeah, but not under what the E became. It certainly requires that people from poorer countries aren’t used as basically scab/cheap labour to undermine pay and conditions of local workers of whatever origin.
Anyway, enough of that. What should best be considered a warning shot of future fascism was all sorted out about a decade ago. Hopefully UK society took note of the disaffection amongst the people that voted to leave the EU, looked at exactly what was bothering them, and, if they had good reason to be pissed off, addressed it!
What? They did fuck all but try and reverse the vote for years, terribly undermining the UK’s negotiating position, then ignored the issues voters had thus opening the door for the reform party?
Oh right.
Downvote away but you can’t downvote reality. We can still stop the fascists getting power in the UK, but not without addressing any legitimate issues reform voters have. Brexit should have been taken as a warning shot. It still isn’t.
Yeah but if you value the cultural diversity of Europe why would you want to see it homogenised under one corporatist banner?
Because we are much weaker as divided nations than we can be together. We collectively hold the weight to compete as a superpower, but individually, no European country does. We end up as vassals of more united regions capable of acting with a single voice.
Why should laws be drafted by completely unknown people in Brussels and applied to everybody?
We should be more involved in European politics, and make some of these decisions with other parts of the continent.
Could we achieve this, and have free movement of people? Yeah, but not under what the E became. It certainly requires that people from poorer countries aren’t used as basically scab/cheap labour to undermine pay and conditions of local workers of whatever origin.
This is the default outcome of freedom of movement in a capitalist world. People in poorer places will always seek the opportunity of richer places. How do you think we can prevent it?
UK society
They did fuck all but try and reverse the vote for years, terribly undermining the UK’s negotiating position, then ignored the issues voters had thus opening the door for the reform party?
I’m not sure who exactly you’re talking about here, our society is divided. We are all “UK society”, including those who desired, voted for, and implemented Brexit. The people who said it was a bad idea continued to point out it was a bad idea. Lo and behold, the public now considers it to have been a mistake.
Reform voters are angry about immigration. There isn’t much we can do about immigration because our birth rates are too low. In 2042 we will have a third more retirees as a percentage of the population, that number still goes up if we raise the state pension age to 67 and accept 500k net migration long-term. We need workers to pay tax to fund the NHS and pensions, our biggest expenses. Unless they have a solution to this fundamental problem, mass migration is here to stay.
Pretty much all of your points are dubious or plain wrong, but the truth is I can’t be bothered wasting my energy on a reply. I say wasting my energy because the various attitudes you exhibited are very common, and will lead to the rise of Reform. And like most people, you are not able to change your mind in response to new information. I wish it wasn’t going to happen but it is.
all of your points are wrong
I won’t explain why
you are not able to change your mind
Okay lmao. Why participate in a political forum if you don’t think there’s any point discussing politics with people?
None of what I have said is wrong. Here are some sources.
Its frustrating to see people down vote this due to cooky cutter propaganda but as a socialist party member I agree the European unions was a bad idea and the uk government willfully join even against the wants of the British people. This a forgotten part of uk history.
